Curse

Sebiale · Aug 09, 2012, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I've seen a few defunct links to a Me/A AP caller on GWPvX; was this a former build that's now defunct, or was it just lost somewhere?

Drk Dervish · Aug 09, 2012, 08:24 PM // 20:24

You have to give us more detail then that. Who know which build your actually looking at. Also its best to try out the build first, cause all build posted are custom to that person playing style. ie if a build require fast reaction time or base on other game know how which you might not able to do, then it a defunct for you even if its a good build.

Xenomortis · Aug 09, 2012, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Since I cannot find the Mes AP build on PvX (such a build definitely did exist there and is a sort of meta build I guess), I'm guessing it got spike voted to Trash and was automatically deleted as a result. Seems a little odd to me, but such is the nature of that site; AP has been hated on for a while there for both the Mes and Ele.
The build is still decent, but the Mes is my least favourite of the three major AP users.

For reference, here are the two Me/A AP builds I have saved:

OQdUA4gMM/SLQTALB7i2gxk5UiOA
Assassin's Promise
Fragility
Arcane Echo
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
Cry of Pain
Finish Him
Drain Delusions
Auspicious Incantation

OQdUAwAPKfSiOLB7i2kxkLQvNkAA
Auspicious Incantation
Arcane Echo
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
You Move Like a Dwarf
Finish Him
Assassin's Promise
Illusion of Pain
Arcane Conundrum

I really don't like either of them, but they're functional and still a good choice for Mesmers I guess.

Premium Unleaded · Aug 09, 2012, 09:54 PM // 21:54

IoP doesn't work very well now because of the hp/hm changes. It should be replaced with wandering eye.

Xenomortis · Aug 09, 2012, 10:01 PM // 22:01

As much as I'd like to change IoP, I don't like the idea of Wandering Eye on a spike build.
I guess in practice it's not going to be detrimental too often though.

Cuilan · Aug 09, 2012, 10:42 PM // 22:42

The AP mesmer build was removed by trolls. PvX isn't a reliable source of getting builds these days, so that sorta just leaves people who you trust to get ideas or tips from.

I use the second build that Xeno posted. AC can be replaced with Fragility.

Sebiale · Aug 09, 2012, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

PvX isn't a reliable source of getting builds these days, so that sorta just leaves people who you trust to get ideas or tips from.

PvX, GWpvX, or both?

Xenomortis · Aug 09, 2012, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sebiale

PvX or GWpvX, or both?

Both, but people refer to GWPvX as PvX these days. The original PvX was pretty much abandoned after the forced wikia changes.

Daesu · Aug 10, 2012, 12:52 AM // 00:52

This is still the best AP caller build that I have been using for the past 2 years or so on my mesmer, even though gwpvx declared it as defunct, it has never failed me yet:

http://www.gwpvx.com/index.php?title...&oldid=1144574

This is my favorite AP build compared to all the other N/A, Me/A, and E/A AP builds that I know.

Balthazar Blessed · Aug 10, 2012, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Auspicious Incantation
Arcane Echo
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
You Move Like a Dwarf
Finish Him
Assassin's Promise
Chaos Storm
Cry of Fustration (or what ever you like)

This works perfectly for me. Just spam EVAS or Chaos storm.

Sebiale · Aug 10, 2012, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Are you not supposed to take Fast Casting, or not put many points in it? Otherwise some of the skills in the builds don't seem like they would be very worthwhile because of how few points are left after Fast Casting and Deadly Arts.

Xenomortis · Aug 10, 2012, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sebiale

Are you not supposed to take Fast Casting, or not put many points in it? Otherwise some of the skills in the builds don't seem like they would be very worthwhile because of how few points are left after Fast Casting and Deadly Arts.

Apart from the build utilising Illusion of Pain, there isn't anything that requires much investment after Deadly Arts; you don't need a high Inspiration spec so you may as well invest heavily in Fast Casting.
But you don't really need more than 10 points either in Deadly Arts and FC (before runes).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

This is still the best AP caller build that I have been using for the past 2 years or so on my mesmer, even though gwpvx declared it as defunct, it has never failed me yet:

http://www.gwpvx.com/index.php?title...&oldid=1144574

This is my favorite AP build compared to all the other N/A, Me/A, and E/A AP builds that I know.

I know it's in one of the builds I posted earlier, but the more I look at it, the more Fragility just seems stupid; YMLAD is much faster than CoP and if you're going to take Epidemic, you might as well squeeze it harder.

Daesu · Aug 10, 2012, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I know it's in one of the builds I posted earlier, but the more I look at it, the more Fragility just seems stupid; YMLAD is much faster than CoP and if you're going to take Epidemic, you might as well squeeze it harder.

CoP has a nice AoE damage while YMLAD is single target that is the main reason why I prefer CoP over YMLAD. I can also choose to echo CoP if I want to. Fragility is more for CoP prep than for actual damage. Notice that my illusion is very low.

Epidemic is the least used skill on that bar and should actually be optional. I almost never have a chance to use that since monsters die so quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balthazar Blessed

This works perfectly for me. Just spam EVAS or Chaos storm.

I don't really like Chaos storm because it makes monsters flee the storm in random directions.

Kunder · Aug 11, 2012, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Can't say that I see the point of CoP. It's 50 damage + 10 DPS from degen. Even if you hit multiple enemies... its 50 damage. Cmon, that's entirely negligible, especially when you want to spike single targets to recharge your skills. YMLAD is 80 damage and most importantly it's INSTANT, whereas CoP is ~.5s cast + .75s aftercast. The great thing about shouts is that you can still use them while chaining EVAS after EVAS, CoP breaks that.

EVAS is ~300 initial chain damage + assassin DPS (which is something like 25-40ish) + assassin drawing fire from you. You certainly shouldn't be echoing CoP over EVAS, especially considering that the degen from CoP doesn't even stack.

Daesu · Aug 11, 2012, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Can't say that I see the point of CoP. It's 50 damage + 10 DPS from degen. Even if you hit multiple enemies... its 50 damage. Cmon, that's entirely negligible, especially when you want to spike single targets to recharge your skills. YMLAD is 80 damage and most importantly it's INSTANT, whereas CoP is ~.5s cast + .75s aftercast. The great thing about shouts is that you can still use them while chaining EVAS after EVAS, CoP breaks that.

EVAS is ~300 initial chain damage + assassin DPS (which is something like 25-40ish) + assassin drawing fire from you. You certainly shouldn't be echoing CoP over EVAS, especially considering that the degen from CoP doesn't even stack.

So CoP is 50 damage almost instant + 5 degen for 10s. YMLAD is 80 damage instant. As long you have more than 1 foe "in the area" (i.e. biggest aoe in the game), you have already dealt more damage with CoP than YMLAD and I am not taking the degen into account even, so I don't see why CoP is an obviously inferior skill to YMLAD for all situations.

Furthermore, I can do Fragility+Arcane Echo+CoP+CoP for double the damage which you can't do for YMLAD. So depending on the situation, CoP can be superior to YMLAD.

EVAS is nice and echoing EVAS is my default, but it is mostly single-target to single-target damage. Chaining EVAS with CoP is not as big a deal with a high fast cast and my CoP recharges even faster than YMLAD. Running such a bar allows you to determine what is the best combo based on the situation.

The other observation I have for AP builds is that it is not always the best strategy to spike down your AP target ASAP. Making use of your AP target for aoe damage from CoP or MoP can often yield a faster mob clearing speed than trying to cast AP+single target damage on every single enemy on the field. Killing single targets fast is easy but the real challenge is killing entire mobs fast and having every enemy in degen while you attack your AP target clears the mob faster.

Kunder · Aug 11, 2012, 11:58 PM // 23:58

But spending over a second casting CoP isn't "almost instant", you could have spent that second casting EVAS for ~500 total damage AND used your YMLAD shout for 80 damage. YMLAD has infinity damage over time spent casting, Cry of Pain doesn't. Again, EVAS is 300 damage + 30 DPS for ~25 seconds (stacking). CoP is only 50 damage per target + 10 DPS for 10 seconds (non stacking). If your first CoP hits 5 or more enemies it will barely be better in overall damage than EVAS over a 10s period, but your second CoP is wasting 2/3rds of your damage because the degen doesn't stack,

If you want AoE damage, you should be slotting Wastrel's Worry/Demise. It's not taking up your PvE slot, has the obvious synergy with YMLAD, has far better cast time/recharge/energy, and does more damage. Even if you don't want the adjacent AoE of Wastrels' other mesmer non-PvE-only AoE spells can put out better damage per cast time than CoP.

I'm not sure why you mention Fragility. It only triggers on conditions, not CoP's hex. There's no synergy here. In fact I would describe it as anti-synergy, because without it you would be able to cast Arcane Echo before the battle started and shave that cast time off your in battle wasted prep time.

Daesu · Aug 12, 2012, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

But spending over a second casting CoP isn't "almost instant", you could have spent that second casting EVAS for ~500 total damage AND used your YMLAD shout for 80 damage. YMLAD has infinity damage over time spent casting, Cry of Pain doesn't.

If you want AoE damage, you should be slotting Wastrel's Worry/Demise. It's not taking up your PvE slot, has the obvious synergy with YMLAD, has far better cast time/recharge/energy, and does more damage. Even if you don't want Wastrel's other mesmer non-PvE only AoE spells can put out better damage per cast time than CoP.

I'm not sure why you mention Fragility. It only triggers on conditions, not CoP's hex. There's no synergy here. In fact I would describe it as anti-synergy, because without it you would be able to cast Arcane Echo before the battle started and shave that cast time off your in battle wasted prep time.

Wastrel's Worry/Demise require a special skill bar (e.g. Panic) to fit them in. You can't just use them and keep your fingers crossed because HM monsters do spam their skills a lot and the pure KD from YMLAD doesn't last long. You also need a 10s recharge on YMLAD which is longer than CoP under 14 FC, plus it is single target. Furthermore, WW/WD are only ADJACENT distance aoe which is a BIG difference in aoe size from CoP. In terms of damage over energy, CoP fairs better than WW/WD.

As for Fragility, CoP requires a MESMER hex to work, Fragility is that mesmer hex.

Imagine a large group of caster foes spread out in an area, in a situation like this, CoP would clear the mob much faster than YMLAD.

Kunder · Aug 12, 2012, 12:17 AM // 00:17

WW works fine with YMLAD. All knockdowns are 2s, all you have to do is use YMLAD about half a second after using WW and it hits. WD is more situational. YMLAD's recharge doesn't matter. We use AP, remember? The reason I tend to disregard the smaller AoE is because unless you have enemies balled up you shouldn't be casting WW or CoP, you should be casting EVAS. It's only when enemies are balled up that AoE outpaces EVAS.

Again, remember that its not CoP vs YMLAD. It's CoP vs EVAS + YMLAD, and EVAS alone is better than CoP in almost any situation. EVAS is certainly ALWAYS better than a second CoP in any rational situation.

As for Fragility, yeah I forgot CoP has that condition. That just makes it even worse, and is another reason you shouldn't use it. You take 4s casting fluff before you even get to the whole point of the build, EVAS. If an AP build has EVAS ready to cast and is not either casting EVAS or Arcane Echo->EVAS then something has gone wrong.

Daesu · Aug 12, 2012, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

WW works fine with YMLAD. All knockdowns are 2s, all you have to do is use YMLAD about half a second after using WW and it hits. WD is more situational. YMLAD's recharge doesn't matter. We use AP, remember?

I wouldn't say that recharge doesn't matter at all for AP bars. The recharge matters less in most cases, but if your AP is removed then the recharge start to matter a lot more.

There are several reasons against WW/WD on that bar besides those that I have already listed, you also need to spec into domination for them to be effective which would either compete with deadly arts, or fast casting. Either way, there would be a skill bar wide reduction in performance. And I do find adjacent aoe damage vastly inferior to "in the area" aoe damage.

Quote:

Again, remember that its not CoP vs YMLAD. It's CoP vs EVAS + YMLAD, and EVAS alone is better than CoP in almost any situation. EVAS is certainly ALWAYS better than a second CoP in any rational situation.

Lol! Now we are comparing damages from 2 skills EVAS + YMLAD against 1 CoP? EVAS has always been there in the bar so it is neutral. You still get a KD from EVAS from hexing the target first instead of condition.

Quote:

As for Fragility, yeah I forgot CoP has that condition. That just makes it even worse, and is another reason you shouldn't use it. You take 4s casting fluff before you even get to the whole point of the build, EVAS. If an AP build has EVAS ready to cast and is not either casting EVAS or Arcane Echo->EVAS then something has gone wrong.

Like I said, we are not comparing EVAS with CoP, EVAS is in my skill bar already. We are comparing YMLAD with CoP and comparing a single-target damage against a "in the area" (i.e. largest aoe) damage, in the situation of a large spread out caster foes group, is just not worthwhile. CoP degen also stacks with CoP by the way.

Don't just think of killing single target by single target, think of killing the entire mob asap, and aoe damage like CoP would clear the mob faster in this case than YMLAD.

Kunder · Aug 12, 2012, 12:36 AM // 00:36

We are comparing EVAS vs CoP because time spent casting CoP is time not spent casting EVAS. Them still being on the same bar is irrelevant; if you aren't using it then it might as well not exist. The reason YMLAD is good is primarily because it does not interrupt EVAS.